Rachel Starr Thomson

Jill Williamson is the author of the Christy-Award-winning fantasy novel By Darkness Hid, as well as its newly released sequel, To Darkness Fled. The CSFF bloggers toured By Darkness Hid back in May (my review is here), and Jill was kind enough to grant me a late interview. Below, we talk about Jill’s amazing world-building process, Marcher Lord Press, paths to publication, and more. Enjoy!

Rachel: First off, your book has been nominated and recognized in several exciting ways lately. [Note: Since I wrote these interview questions, Jill became the winner of the 2010 Christy Award in the Visionary Category! She's now gone beyond "nominated" to "award-winning."] Can you tell us about that? How are you feeling about all this recognition?

Jill: I’m proud and humbled at the same time. It’s very exciting and slightly intimidating. I sometimes feel like I’m on the sidelines watching my life and wondering what God is up to. I’m so honored to be blessed by these recognitions. I pray that I can finish the trilogy in a satisfying way for my readers.

Rachel: You said in an earlier interview that some of your motivation to write By Darkness Hid came from the reaction to Harry Potter within Christian circles—that you wanted to write a fantasy novel “everyone would like.” How’s that turning out?

Jill: LOL. Not so well. I was very naive to think any book could meet the expectations of Christians everywhere. I’ve since learned that you can’t please everyone. And I’ve discovered that Christians can be the biggest critics. Some people feel that fantasy novels are not safe for their children to read. And some Christians actively seek new clean fantasy books for their kids. For the most part, teen readers like my books, which was my goal. Their parents might not, though. ?

Rachel: It struck me as I read By Darkness Hid that its world felt very real. You didn’t give an overload of details, but I got the feeling there was a lot of depth and texture to these places and cultures and people. Can you describe your process of world building?
Jill: The first thing I did was draw my map. And it was way too big and looked a bit like Africa, but I went with it. I noticed I had about 50 dots on it that were meant to become cities. It overwhelmed me to think of naming them all, so I erased a few. But I still had a bunch to name, so I used Hebrew words to name most of them. For example, “allown” is Hebrew for “oak” or “tree” so Allowntown in the center of the map is where my half dead-half living tree is.

Jill: Once I’d named all the places, I created a character sheet for each. I used a set of encyclopedias to look up similar places. For example, Barth Duchy is supposed to be desert, similar to northern Africa. So I looked up some countries in northern Africa and jotted down climate, crops, animals, plants, industry, that sort of thing. I also brainstormed a culture for each town. I did all this for every town in my land.

Then I needed character names. I’d been using Hebrew for many of them, but I wanted some variety. So I came up with some tricks. Allowntown, for example, is an orchard town. So I wrote a list of types of apples. Gala, Pippin, Cortland, Concord, Crab, Ginger, Fuji, etc. And when I needed a new character from Allowntown, I’d pick a name from the list. Each town had a theme. Carmine is a vineyard town, so I brainstormed a list of things having to do with wine: Rioja, Flint, Terra, Keuper, Pinot, Concord, Malbec, etc. For Berland I used Inupiat names. For Magos I used Gaelic names. For Cherem, I used names of stars. It was fun. I also sketched out the castles in cities where major parts of the story took place. I sketched characters. I wrote a history of my land with a timeline of who was king when, what major events took place, wars, births, deaths, etc. I wrote family trees so that I knew who married who. I kept everything in a 3-ring binder. At one point my husband said, “Jill, I thought you were going to write a book.” So I finally set the world building aside and started to write.

Rachel: Achan is a classic hero, an underdog who rises from the ashes to take his rightful place. During the CSFF blog tour, a few of us discussed whether someone in Achan’s position could really develop the character he did. We talked about the influence of “good genes,” God’s protection, and Achan’s own choices. How do you see this character’s development? What makes him a good guy instead of a resentful, scarred individual who’s only in it for himself?

Jill: His friendship with Gren Fenny. She rescued him from being alone. She taught him to swim and was kind to him. Told him that he should be treated that way. That he was worth more. That inspired him. He wanted to be to others what she had been to him. Plus, he saw her parents interact and how they loved each other and hoped that he might have such a family someday.

Rachel: Your handling of “love” in the book intrigued me. More than one character thinks he or she is “in love,” but rather than giving them the classic fantasy/fairy tale “true love,” you’ve made their feelings much more—shall we say adolescent? They’re a bit fickle and not so deep as the characters believe. Was this intentional? What are your thoughts on love in fiction?

Jill: I think many times, love in fiction is not realistic. I’ve worked with teens for twelve years. Most of their “true love” relationships don’t turn out to be true love. Break ups. Heartbreak. Lies. Cheating. But teens are confused. Hollywood paints this magical, unrealistic view of love and sex. And since I wrote for teens, I wanted to show things teens struggle with. I also wanted to show that love is a choice. So many people today give up on love when the “feelings” go away. They jump from one relationship to another, wondering what’s wrong with them. Why can’t they find that magical love? But love is more than “feelings.” Love is a choice to give another person kindness and affection and patience and forgiveness. So that’s what I try to show…eventually. *wink*

Plus I need to keep the tension going. If my characters were already living happily ever after, I loose all that. That’s why the people you want to get together on your favorite TV show never do. Think of Clark and Lana or later, Clark and Lois on Smallville. The writers drag this out for as many seasons as they can. And if they do let the characters get together, their love is quickly thwarted. It’s a trick to keep the tension up. ?

Rachel: Your publisher is Marcher Lord Press, a very nontraditional small press that specializes in Christian fantasy. Did you find them, or did they find you? How did your relationship with Marcher Lord come about?

Jill: I met Jeff at the 2007 Mount Hermon Christian Writer’s conference. He told me he freelance edited for a few famous spec fiction authors. I’d been frustrated with all the rejections and lack of interest in teen YA and had been looking for someone to read my book and tell me if I knew what I was doing. But I wanted the right person. So when I heard that, I started saving my dollars because I knew that Jeff would get my “weird” YA book. Almost a year later I paid him to freelance edit my first book—a teen spy story. His feedback was fabulous and encouraging. So when I attended the Oregon Christian Summer Coaching Conference in the fall of 2008, and saw that NO ONE wanted to see YA books, I gave Jeff the first chapter of my medieval teen novel to see what he though of it. He wanted to meet with me to talk about it, asked why it had to be YA, asked if it was really, truly 100% done, asked if I’d send him the full. And I did. And he wanted to publish it. I figured this could be the opportunity to get a book out there and promote it and start my writing career. So I accepted his offer.

Rachel: MLP’s Web site says its titles “titles are not expected to find their way to bookstore shelves. The primary sales channel will be the Internet. A Marcher Lord Press author may never see his or her novel at the local bookstore or Wal-Mart . . . Marcher Lord Press will do very little in terms of marketing the novels we publish. There will be no multi-city book tours or TV appearances or advertisements in Publisher’s Weekly.” These days, it seems writers have to be salespeople as well as writers. How do you market By Darkness Hid? In what ways has MLP benefited you more than, say, self-publishing could have done?

Jill:As soon as I signed the contract I started marketing. I’ve learned a lot over the years. I knew that it was all me. Even if Zondervan had picked up my book, it still would have depended on me to promote. I had already made my own website. I signed up for a blog tour. I sought out a list of influencers. I asked Jeff if I could print my own ARCs and mail them to Publisher’s Weekly and Library Journal. He got excited and offered to make real ones. I wrote my own press releases and sent them to newspapers. I submitted to any contest I could. I solicited endorsements. I gave at least 100 books away to reviewers and friends and contests and libraries. I set up my own book signing. I volunteered and still volunteer to speak at schools and libraries and to teach writing workshops.

Marcher Lord Press benefited me more than self-publishing because I didn’t have to pay anything to get my books produced. Jeff paid me. My book earned out in the first three months and I started to receive royalties. Also, Jeff is an amazing editor. He gets what makes a great story. He’s sharp about when things aren’t working. He has a reputation in the industry already and I knew that I would benefit from that. Jeff also designs great books, inside and out. I have a gorgeous, award-winning cover thanks to Kirk DouPonce. Jeff designed the interior layout. Also, Publisher’s Weekly and Library Journal would not have reviewed my book had I self-published it.

Rachel: I’ve not yet had a chance to read To Darkness Fled, though I look forward to it! Can you whet our appetites for it?

Jill: Achan and Vrell and the knights have fled into Darkness to escape Esek’s wrath. Their destination is Ice Island where they hope to free an Old Kingsguard army that has been falsely imprisoned. Achan struggles with a new host of pressures due to his new identity. And Vrell continues to hide, but her secret won’t be safe for long.

Rachel: Finally, what are you reading these days? What writers have had the heaviest influence on your own writing and sense of story?

Jill:I’ve been reading Christian fiction. I recently read Eric Wilson’s Valley of Bones, Tosca Lee’s Demon: a Memoir, and Stephanie Morrill’s So Over It. I also read what’s popular in general market YA. I’m reading The Sea of Monsters by Rick Riordan and I recently finished Inside Out by Maria V. Snyder.

The Harry Potter books totally inspired me. The storyworld most of all but also the complex plot and the way Rowling balanced all her characters. I love how deep the layers go. How she knows so much about every minor character. I’m also inspired by Frank Peretti’s premises. I love adding some kind of spiritual warfare to my stories. And I love the epic style of Tolkien.

Today, I interview Bryan Davis, author of Starlighter, on the characters, upcoming titles, the strange and fascinating journeys that lead to publication, and the difference between magical powers in fantasy and magical powers in the real world.

Rachel: So let’s start with a really easy question: who’s your favourite character in Starlighter? Why?

Bryan: I get asked about favorite characters many times, and it’s always hard to answer, because I like so many of them. I create characters (the heroes, of course) who are appealing to me. If I had to pick one, I think I would go with Koren. There’s something special about a heroine who suffers greatly but still rises to sacrifice for others. I find her captivating. Koren is vulnerable, yet strong. She is naïve is some ways, yet filled with wisdom in others. She despises the cruelty of slavery, yet is willing to endure it for the sake of others. She is truly heroic.

Rachel: I ask because you did something in this book that’s an essential for me: wrote great side characters. For some reason I never like protagonists as much as I should, so I latch onto side characters, and I like big casts. Jason and Koren take center stage in Starlighter, but I was equally fascinated by Wallace, Randall, Tibber, and especially Elyssa. Will any of these folks be playing a bigger role in the coming books?

Bryan:Elyssa and Wallace will definitely take bigger roles, especially Elyssa. She is a mysterious character who has gifts that go unexplained in Starlighter. I didn’t understand them myself until I wrote the second book. I am working on the third book right now, and her role grows even more.

Rachel: I was intrigued by Starlighter’s mix of classic fantasy with sci-fi elements. What inspired you to mix genres this way, and what are the challenges of doing so?

Bryan: I’m not sure where to draw the line between fantasy and science fiction. I have defined science fiction as fiction that could be true if technology developed far enough, and fantasy is fiction that doesn’t explain the strange elements at all. Usually, a fantasy story can’t happen no matter how far technology advances. I see Starlighter as pure fantasy, because the technology, for the most part, is behind our own, and the strange elements could never happen. I don’t explain how the portal works, how the litmus finger guides Jason, how the river reverses course, etc. I provide no science to explain it, so, to me, Starlighter falls squarely in the fantasy category.

Rachel: Dragons of Starlight is your fourth YA fantasy series—and three involve dragons. How did you fall into this ongoing relationship with our scaly, fire-breathing friends?

Bryan: My Echoes from the Edge series doesn’t involve dragons at all, so Dragons of Starlight is my third dragon-oriented series. Dragons in our Midst began when I had a dream about a boy who could breathe fire. I told my eldest son about it, and he suggested that I write a story about the dream. He and I brainstormed together and decided that the boy’s father was once a dragon. Eight years later, AMG Publishers took a chance on that story, and it became Raising Dragons, the first Dragons in our Midst book. Oracles of Fire is a sequel series, so it also had dragons. After I wrote Echoes from the Edge for Zondervan, they wanted me to write a dragons series for them, since my other dragons books were so successful for AMG, so that led me to write the Dragons of Starlight series.

Rachel: Do you anticipate moving into non-dragon waters in fiction at any point?

Bryan: Besides the Echoes from the Edge series, I have written I Know Why the Angels Dance, a standalone contemporary novel, published by AMG. I have ideas for other non-dragons stories that I am excited about, so I hope I get the opportunity to write them soon.

Rachel: Speaking of waters, you’ve entered some potentially controversial ones in this book. Several of your characters possess gifts that, in our world, most Christians would condemn as demonic. (Koren essentially “channels” the voice of the dragon prince, and Elyssa’s hyper-awareness of the world around her earns her the title “Diviner” and has her all but condemned as a witch.) Talk to me about the line between fiction and reality and how (and why) to walk that line as a Christian fantasy author.

Bryan: Since the Dragons in our Midst series takes place in our world, I had to draw the line between reality and fantasy very carefully, more so in that series than in Dragons of Starlight. In Dragons in our Midst, I adhered to the realities of our world and added the fantasy elements without violating the truths of the Bible’s revelations of the spiritual world. I have the real God, and I mention the real Jesus, which established my story as one that could not trespass lines drawn by the Bible. So all my heroic characters never use magic or other powers that Christians in our world would consider demonic or as arising from forbidden sources.

Starlighter, however, takes place in another world. The characters have inherent abilities that would be considered demonic in our world, but in this world, they are endowed by the Creator. Just as the Holy Spirit gives different gifts to humans in our world, God does the same in the Starlighter world, but some of the gifts don’t match those in our world. Koren can spiritually speak to the unborn dragon and make her stories come alive. These abilities are inherent in a Starlighter, and they are provided by the Creator. The same is true for Elyssa. Her Diviner gifts come from the Creator. Again, it’s a different world, so humans can have abilities that we don’t have here.

I realized when I wrote the story that some people would challenge these abilities as demonic. That’s why I created the persecutors who chase Elyssa and characterize them as dark-ages style inquisitors who are blind to the possibility that God is able to endow people with gifts they don’t understand.

In our world, people who seek power from sources other than God are rightly criticized if, indeed, the source of power is from darkness. A problem arises when someone has a gift from God that people simply don’t understand, and ignorance gives rise to fear, and fear gives rise to attack. This happened when the Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of Satan.

Starlighter presents a similar situation in which we have a character who is able to do things the religious elite don’t understand, and they accuse her of having demonic influence. They refuse to consider the possibility that God provides some humans with these gifts. I cast these persecutors as the Pharisees of the Starlighter cosmos, people blinded by their own religiosity.

So, in essence, if people accuse me of promoting the powers of darkness in this story, they are really in that category as well, since they are unable to comprehend that this is a different world with different rules. They are blinded by their religiosity.

Rachel: Starlighter’s dedication credits Amanda (your daughter?) with giving you the idea for this story. Can you share how that came about?

Bryan: Amanda is my 19-year-old daughter. I mentioned before that Zondervan asked for a dragons story, so I asked my children if they had any ideas. Amanda suggested a story about a world populated by dragons that enslaves humans kidnapped from a world of humans. She also came up with the idea that two teenaged humans would go to the dragon world to try to bring the slaves home. I told Zondervan about the idea, and they loved it. I made up the details as I wrote the story, included the Starlighter and Diviner characters, but Amanda invented the basic storyline.

Rachel: You’ve left us with something of a cliffhanger at the end of Starlight. Can you whet our appetites for the next book?

Bryan: Telling about the next book is challenging for two reasons. One is that the next book is not part of the Dragons of Starlight series. Two is that I don’t even know the title for the next Dragons of Starlight book.

Originally, Zondervan was going to publish two series, one for young adults and one for adults, so I wrote Starlighter with that fact in mind, creating two adults in Starlighter, Adrian and Marcelle, who had minor roles. I planned to make them the main characters in the adult series. After I wrote the first adult story and submitted it, Zondervan canceled the adult series because of the departure of the editor who acquired it. AMG Publishers picked it up, but they are not allowed to use the “Dragons of Starlight” name, so they are calling the two-book adult series, “Tales of Starlight.”

Therefore, the next book will be Masters & Slayers, book one in the Tales of Starlight series. It will debut in September. After that, sometime in January, the second book in Dragons of Starlight will come out. In that story, Jason and Koren continue their journey toward the Northlands to find the ally that Arxad said would be there, but when the black egg hatches, the new prince will use his influence on Koren to try to bring her back. In the meantime, Elyssa and Wallace begin their search for Jason, and they make an amazing discovery in a secret room in the Zodiac’s lower level. What did they find? I’ll just say that it is something that Arxad and Magnar have kept secret for many years, and if the prince from the black egg obtains it, all will be lost.

Rachel: Bryan, thanks for a great interview!

Tomorrow, a few of my own thoughts on the reality/fantasy division and how fantasy can act as an all-too-revealing mirror on the real world.

Today, an interview with Matt Mikalatos, author of Imaginary Jesus, in which we discuss controversy, the significance of style, the people behind the story, and more. Venture on!

Rachel: The info sheet sent with Imaginary Jesus proclaims that your book “has the potential to get a Christian publisher in a whole lot of trouble.” The comment is tongue in cheek, but there’s no denying your book is controversial. Is that something that scared you as you wrote it? If so, how did you find the courage to keep on writing?

Matt: During the writing itself I wasn’t thinking much about it, I was busy entertaining myself. If it made me laugh I threw it in. During the editing process we cut quite a bit of the needlessly controversial episodes. When I was uncertain whether we should keep something in the book I would use two criteria: Is this funny? Is it true?

My editor Lisa Jackson was really instrumental in this process as well. She would help me put things “on trial.” She would come after things as a skeptic (“Prove to me that you NEED that offensive event in the book.”) and I would give my best apologetic for why it was good and necessary. Sometimes things got cut, sometimes they survived. But I have to give enormous props to Tyndale that they let me make the final call on what would be left in the book and what would be edited out. They gave me a lot of leeway.

Truthfully, I don’t mind offending people if it moves them toward Christ. What I don’t want to do is offend people just for fun. So there are some controversial things we agreed to keep in the book because we felt it shook people out of their misconceptions of Jesus. I hope there aren’t any gratuitous offenses left in the book.

Rachel: Was “funny” part of your original concept for the book, or did you ever consider writing your story in another style? What’s the significance of humour to you as a Christian and writer?

Matt: Yes, funny was always in the plan. I think humor has a way of disarming us. Serious essays knock politely on the front door and ask to be let in, and comedy sneaks in the back window, makes itself a sandwich and puts its feet up on the table. You see this so clearly in, for instance, Shakespeare’s presentation of “the fool” in King Lear. The fool can say things to the king that no one else is allowed to say, because he’s funny and maybe a little unhinged. Comedy lets you sneak messages past people’s defense mechanisms.

Humor has always been an important part of my life, I guess. I like to see people laugh, and there are a lot of wonderful things in the world that should give us riotous belly laughs. It’s important to celebrate the good things that God has given us in life. Christians should not have a reputation as the dour, sour-faced people. We should be full of vibrant life. Certainly in scripture we see a lot of satire, especially in the prophetic works, where a prophet points out the mistakes and sins of those around him in a funny way by saying something like, “Look. You cut down a tree and use half of it to make a fire to keep you warm and carve the other half into an idol and worship it.” He’s pointing out the absurdity of the situation and making light of it. That’s a pretty unique thing that humor allows you to do.

Rachel: How have you found reception to the book so far?

Matt: Surprisingly, overwhelmingly positive. I had visions of being chased out of churches by villagers with torches, or at least of being publicly humiliated on the internet. I’ve found that the age range of the fans is much broader than I expected (a seventy year old woman at my church pulled me aside to tell me it was the funniest book she’s ever read), and I have been amazed by the number of e-mails I am getting from people who say, “I realized while reading your book that I was following an imaginary Jesus and now I’m working on following the real Jesus.” There have been a few detractors, but they’ve been pretty mild, and from people who aren’t really the target audience for the book, anyway.

Rachel: In my review I stated that this book shouldn’t be read as a theological treatise on “the real Jesus,” but as the spiritual journey of a real Christian. It’s open and honest and sometimes surprisingly raw. Can you share a little of the story behind the story?

Matt: Sure. This is a mild spoiler if you haven’t read the book, so avert your eyes now if you care. A few years ago, my wife became pregnant with our third child. The night before we left for a trip to Thailand she had a miscarriage, which was completely unexpected and emotionally devastating. We cried all the way to Thailand. I was surprised, actually, by the depth of my own grief and sense of loss over our baby’s death. It brought up a lot of questions… if God is good and powerful why doesn’t he intervene in these situations? I know from experience and from scripture that he is both good and powerful and even that he loves me, so why doesn’t that seem to match what I am experiencing? And of course we knew all the theological answers, but they weren’t terribly comforting. I wanted to know Christ was near me, not know some theological factoid about him. In a lot of ways our story parallels that of of Mary and Martha when Lazarus died. They say to Christ, “Where were you?” And that was my question, too… I know you are good, I know you have the power to intervene, so why didn’t you? I tried to share honestly about that part of our spiritual journey in the book.

Rachel: As “Matt” in the book comes closer and closer to encountering the “real Jesus,” I found myself wondering how on earth you were going to pull that off. Unless you were to simply present Jesus through the verses of Scripture, how can you write the real Jesus into a work of fiction without making Him just as imaginary as the rest of the bunch? Is this something you struggled with as you wrote? Are you satisfied with your presentation of the real Jesus?

Matt: I was scared to death that I wasn’t going to be able to pull off a convincing “real Jesus” by the book’s end. The easy route, of course, would be to have some moment in which I was witness to a Biblical event (and I do use that technique in the book) but I was concerned that implies that Jesus is “dead”… that there aren’t new stories with him in them. And I was sensitive to the fact that if I presented a “This Is The Real Jesus” moment that it might really be “Here’s Matt’s Current Understanding of Jesus.” So, I took a real encounter with Jesus from my own life, and presented it in a way that I hoped would be compelling and true in the context of the book. Overall, I’m pretty satisfied with the way it turned out. My hope is that it takes people to the place of saying, “There is a real Jesus out there, and I can get to know who he is if I look for him.”

Rachel: I loved the atheists’ Bible study. Are those folks real? And are they all still atheists?

Matt: The study is real, yes. I actually only went one time, but I was impressed with their commitment to discovering what the Bible actually is trying to say… they were a lot more serious about it than many Christians I know. My experience is that there are many reasonable atheists who enjoy intelligent conversation on spiritual matters. I would encourage everyone to find an atheist and make friends!

Rachel: What’s with the talking donkey?

Matt: Sweet Daisy, the talking donkey, was not part of the plan. She nosed her way into the book during a time I had sworn not to edit anything until I was done writing. I remember thinking “I’ll come back later and get rid of this talking donkey.” But by the end of the book she had become one of the more necessary and intelligent characters. Donkeys are used by God at several key points in scripture, which is rather funny. In the story of Balaam, we see that a donkey is sometimes a better prophet than a human. That’s what Daisy does in the book… she’s a theologian who is constantly pointing out my own flaws, inconsistencies and idiocies. She’s a construct very similar to the apostles Peter and John in the story, and hopefully she gives the reader a little clue into the origin of those characters in the book.

Rachel: Most of my readers are also writers, including myself, so I wanted to ask about your publication process. In the Acknowledgments, you wrote “This book would not exist in its present form if Wes Yoder (agent and friend) hadn’t declined to represent the original sugarcoated collection of Sunday School lessons by saying something along the lines of, ‘This is no good,’ and graciously reading the next draft.” Can you tell us a little about that early incarnation and how it evolved into the book that’s been published today?

Matt: I hope I don’t get in trouble for saying this, but I rarely read theological essay-type books. I don’t like them. But I hatched a plan to write one that would be funnier than normal. You can see the original book proposal here. I queried three agents, all of whom were interested in seeing the proposal. The first one to get back to me was a guy named Wes Yoder who read the proposal and then said, “Forget all those other agents, I’m going to be your agent!” which was very exciting, indeed.

We set up a phone appointment, but by the time I called him he had read my sample chapters, which he did not like. He asked me if I even liked books like the one I was proposing to write, and I had to admit that I did not. He told me that it needed a stronger narrative, and I asked him if he meant something more like Dante’s “Inferno.” Some college kid could probably write a great paper on the parallels between my book and Dante. He also told me to write something I would enjoy, not something I thought agents or editors would like As I recall I said, “It will be weird.” He said that would be fine, so long as I was being honest with myself. He had already said something to the effect of, “I can tell you’re a deeply weird individual who is trying to write something normal.” He didn’t want to be my agent, but he agreed to read the next draft and give me his feedback, which was very generous of him.

So, I debated his advice, talked it over with my wife, turned off my internal editor and spent the weekend writing the most insane six chapters of my life. I had a spectacular time, I felt like a mad scientist who had been given permission to harness lightning to bring a monster to life. I sent Wes those six chapters and he e-mailed, called and texted me within minutes to say that he loved “Imaginary Jesus” and wanted to be my “real agent.” And that’s pretty much the story of how the book went from humorous essays to inexplicable not-quite-true-memoir-fiction-comedy-thing.

Rachel: My thanks to Matt for a great interview, and for giving us all so much to talk about! Readers, browse the rest of the blog tour for the insightful comments and reviews of my fellow tour guides .

And yesterday’s discussion continues, this time touching on editing, plot, fantasy as a genre, and influences. Enjoy!

Rachel: You once mentioned on Facebook that copyediting is one of your favourite parts of revision: I think you said you would turn the whole Auralia Thread into a long prose-poem if you could. Can you comment on that?

Jeffrey: Copyediting used to be agony for me. But the more I come to love poetry, the more I see that any sentence in the book is full of revelatory potential, and the more I like playing with the sounds and rhythms of each paragraph. So yeah, I’d prefer to have three years per book instead of eight months.

Rachel: Your work has strong literary sensibilities, yet you’re working in the much-maligned area of genre fiction. What drew you to fantasy rather than more “realistic” fiction?

Jeffrey: Let me give you a few quotes in answer.

Stanley Kubrick said, “I’ve always liked fairy tales and myths, magical stories. I think they are somehow closer to the sense of reality one feels today than the equally stylized ‘realistic’ story in which a great deal of selectivity and omission has to occur in order to preserve its ‘realist’ style.”

I completely agree with that. Fairy tales are, for me, some of the truest stories I know. They distill things down to such a concentrated, poetic truth. Yes, we live under a curse. Yes, we long for redemption. We are the beast, longing to be healed, and hungry for beauty. We are beauty, feeling compassion for the beast and sensing that there is something worth saving there. We are Sleeping Beauty, deceived into error, and suffering the consequences. We cannot save ourselves, so we have to hope for some kind of grace.

Tolkien said, “It was in fairy stories that I first divined the potency of the words, and the wonder of the things, such as stone, and wood, and iron; tree and grass; house and fire; bread and wine.”

That’s been my experience. And it goes on. In fantasy, we’re allowed to “play” with ideas in a childlike way that helps us apprehend the mysteries beyond the practical, beyond what is immediately available to ur senses. I think the world around us is meant to be read like poetry, and fairy tales help us train our senses for that kind of reading.

Rachel: You’ve pointed out before that there are some amazing writers working in fantasy, some real depth and artistic merit. Why does the genre still get such a bad rap?

Jeffrey: Well, trashy book covers don’t help. And in a consumer-driven society, people will exploit their audiences by fashioning their work to appeal to our baser appetites. Thus, most fantasy takes from Tolkien the violence, the epic battles, the grotesque monsters, but they don’t carry on the grand and glorious ideals that stand in such stark contrast to the darkness.

Our imaginations are more easily dazzled by perversion, by what is lurid and twisted and shocking, than by what is true and beautiful. Beauty requires us to do some work to comprehend it. In our busy culture, where so much is competing for our attention, whatever is loud and shocking will win out. So a lot of fantasy writers and illustrators, as in any genre, exaggerate whatever will grab people’s attention.

But I also think that as people get older, they feel threatened by the mystery of fairy tales. They grow to prefer portrayals of a world that they can understand and control. So they write off fairy tales as childish, because their ego has a desire to feel very grown up, sophisticated, and in control. Not me. I like Madeleine L’Engle’s perspective: I’m 39, but I’m also 5, and 7, and 14, and 21.

Rachel: The power and purpose of art is a major theme—if not the major theme—of the Auralia Thread. I have to ask: What works of art, be they fantasy novels, music recordings, movies, paintings, etc, have influenced you most? What have delighted you most?

Jeffrey: Bible stories, like the Joseph narrative and the Exodus, have sunk right into my marrow, I think—just as much as The Lord of the Rings, The Chronicles of Narnia, Dune, and especially Watership Down. The music of the language in those books, as well as in works I discovered later like Mark Helprin’s Winter’s Tale and Mervyn Peake’s Gormenghast novels, and Patricia McKillip’s books from the last fifteen years—those have inspired me too.

But readers familiar with the music of contemporary bands and artists like U2, Over the Rhine, and Sam Phillips will find echoes of song lyrics here and there. And I’ve named some characters and musical instruments after some of them.

Rachel: I re-read both Auralia’s Colors and Cyndere’s Midnight before reading Raven’s Ladder, and in all three books I’m struck by how masterfully you handle plot. We never feel cheated, yet things rarely if ever turn out the way we expect them to. You are a master of surprises. Does that come naturally, or do you have to work hard to keep from falling into more predictable plots? To what extent do your plots surprise you?

Jeffrey: I suspect that I liked to play “peek-a-boo” when I was an infant. I love the kind of surprise that is both startling and yet the best possible outcome.

But I find that it won’t work if I decide those surprises ahead of time. It works best just to spend a lot of time writing about characters and their surroundings, and the surprises just suggest themselves.

I was writing a scene about the two thieves Krawg and Warney very, very quickly one afternoon, and I found myself writing about how they met, and what made them into thieves. I’d tried to imagine that story for years, and nothing felt right. But one day, following them into a certain predicament, the whole back-story just unfolded right in front of me like somebody putting on a slide show. I was totally surprised and delighted to learn about Warney’s childhood, his sisters, and how he was accused of being a thief from the moment he was born. I hope readers enjoy that scene as much as I enjoyed writing it.

But you throw away a dozen dissatisfying scenes just to get to one that feels like that one.

Rachel: I’m listening to Nathan Partain as I write these questions, thanks to a link from your Web site. Any connection between Nathan and the Bel Amican musician Partayn?

Jeffrey: I feel like you should win some kind of prize. Nathan and Sarah Partain used to lead music at my church, along with a guy named Rick Jensen. They would sing and play with such joy, such rapture, that it took my attention away from them and turned it toward the mysterious interplay of the ancient texts they were singing and the music they were discovering. It was one of the most profound artistic experiences of my life.

They’re making music elsewhere now, and there’s a big Partain-shaped hole in my heart. So I had to name the great musician of The Auralia Thread for them—although he also represents the spirit of Rick Jensen. Sometimes I’m tempted to give my characters long, complicated names in tribute to large groups of people!

Rachel: Jeffrey, thanks so much for sharing your thoughts on so many subjects. This has been a great interview!

—–

This officially marks the end of our three-day tour, but I’m not done with Raven’s Ladder yet. Check back tomorrow for a more personal look at the story AND a chance to win a brand-new copy of the book for yourself.

A slight change to the planned schedule: as I revisited this interview, I realized that it is long and rich and worthy of being posted over more than one day. So this week my touring days are going to extend to Thursday, methinks .

Today we discuss allegory, art, religion, and shockwyrms. The interview begins:

Rachel: The “one true religion” concept is common in Christian fantasy, although it’s more likely to be couched in political terms (the “one true king” idea) than presented as an actual religion. But Raven’s Ladder delves more deeply into false religions and their origins and powers than it does into the “true faith,” even showing how truth can be twisted into something deviant (I’m still thinking about the scene with Auralia’s Defenders). What inspired you to explore this territory?

Jeffrey: That’s a big question. So forgive me if I ramble on for a moment.

For me, the central questions in The Auralia Thread are about art. Writing these three books, I’ve found the characters stirring up a lot of those questions: Where does inspiration come from? Should an artist seek to please an audience, or focus solely on their work? What is going on when a work of art takes on a life of its own? Religion was never the primary subject.

But conversations about art and religion are intertwined. They both ask us to venture into mysterious territory. I’m not surprised that the characters around Auralia and her extravagant artwork have been struggling with questions about what they believe.

King Cal-raven realizes that Auralia’s colors suggest there is a better world somewhere within reach. That shakes up his assumptions about the world. He’s determined to follow those implications and lead his people to a better place. I can’t tell you how many times a good book or a good song has done that very thing for me.

Beauty restores my faith because it reminds me what is possible, and it trains me to read the world around me in such a way that I sense the design, the love, and things that—as Hamlet tells Horatio—“are not dreamt of in our philosophy.”

Beauty inspires us to awe, and makes us feel like we’re a part of something tremendous. But it also humbles us and makes us feel smaller. That can threaten a person’s ego, or their sense of control. Or it can be an exciting invitation to discovery. That’s what happens when Auralia’s colors are revealed to House Bel Amica.

So it makes sense to me that people in a consumer-driven society like House Bel Amica would react to Auralia’s colors by exploiting them for their own advantage. They try to control them, instead of responding to the possibilities they suggest. People do this with art and religion all the time. In the name of American “freedom,” we justify destructive behavior. In the name of Jesus or Mohammed, we justify all kinds of violence and prejudice. But if we take the claims of faith seriously, we’ll realize that it requires humility and sacrifice, and that is disturbing to us. We want to avoid that. So we pervert the original idea to suit ourselves.

Fore example, look at the flourishing industry of “Christian art.” It’s a huge industry. People love the name of Jesus, and so they’ll accept any shoddy, derivative art that has his name stamped on it. A lot of that art is designed to make them happy, to make them feel good, and to tell them things they agree with. “Christian art” is, in most cases, processed comfort food. It pleases them without requiring any change. But if they were really paying attention to the effect of Jesus on people around him, they’d realize that his presence did not make people comfortable. His ideas challenged them. He discomforted them. He made them wrestle with hard questions so that they would grow. The hope and love he revealed to them called them to sacrifice and commitment.

That’s what great art does.

But those artists who are really wrestling with Christ’s scandalous ideas—they produce something different that shakes up culture all around them. Look at Marilynne Robinson’s novels. Bach’s compositions. The politics of Martin Luther King and Abraham Lincoln, Films by Andrei Tarkovsky, Carl Dreyer, or Robert Bresson. The films of Andrei Tarkovsky. The poetry of John Donne, John Milton, or W.H. Auden. Annie Dillard’s nonfiction. Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings. Art that is true and beautiful will not let us sit still. It will break us and humble us even as it gives us hope.

But we don’t want to be shaken up. So we excuse ourselves from dealing with big ideas by blaming the idiots who pervert those ideas. Conservatives mock John Edwards and his infidelity so they can put down liberals. Liberals mock George W. Bush’s lousy vocabulary just so they can bash conservatives. This shuts down progress and the hope of reconciliation. It’s a cop out. Fools do not falsify the truth they’re misrepresenting.

In the world of art, we need to be discerning, so that attractive art doesn’t seduce us into believing lies. At the same time, we need to be careful not to reject great ideas merely because they’ve been distorted into terrible art.

So, it made sense to me that in a free, consumer-driven society like House Bel Amica, people would take advantage of Auralia’s beautiful work in order to promote themselves and to deceive people. That’s so much easier than doing what Cal-raven does—respond to the art by changing his plan and taking terrible risks.

Rachel: In our age of The Secret and Disneyfied spirituality, the Bel Amican moon spirit religion is a bold statement. Thanks for making it.

Jeffrey: Thanks! Growing up, I learned right away that Disney movies—well, actually, American movies—wanted me to follow my heart. But my heart is “deceitful above all things.” Every mistake I’ve made, I could blame on the impulses of my heart. I need a compass that’s made out of something greater than my own skewed perspective.

I like the character of Ryllion a lot. He’s a monster, but he’s been taught to be a monster. He has a sense that he should respond to something greater than himself, so he falls for the lie of the moon-spirit religion. But the Seers tell him that the moon has given him all of his desires, so he should indulge them. That’s a road to self-destruction.

Rachel: In earlier interviews, you’ve said that you don’t like it when readers pigeonhole the characters into an obvious allegory—The Keeper as God the Father, Auralia as Jesus (Raven’s Ladder will certainly explode the notions of those who’ve done the pigeonholing despite your warnings). But I’m wondering if readers have just chosen the wrong allegory, or if you’re avoiding allegory altogether.

Jeffrey: I’m not really thinking about allegory while I write. I’m trying to think about what the characters would do in any given situation. When I stand back and look at the story, sometimes I see various possible interpretations. Some see it as a story about religion. That’s fine. Others see it as a story about art, and the prophetic role of the artist in culture, that’s fine too. I think that if I’ve done my job right, it will inspire different interpretations. Time will tell.

But if I feel that the story is just illustrating a lesson, then I’m doing a terrible job. The story, the characters, the particulars… they need to come first. A good parable will leave the listener or the reader in some measure of doubt about its precise application. That’s what wakes up the gray matter and gets us wrestling with a text. It’s what makes a story personal. It’s what makes a work of art stick.

You’re right, though. Anybody who took Auralia’s Colors as a simple religious allegory is in a position to be very surprised by Raven’s Ladder, I think. And the fourth book should do away with any notion that Auralia is Jesus. Perhaps her artistic endeavors have a redemptive influence in the world around her, but she’s a much more complicated character than just some cardboard messiah.

Rachel: The Expanse is full of strange creatures, even plants, and while you use their names you don’t always describe them—making the Expanse at once familiar and foreign. As a reader I’m sometimes frustrated that I can’t clearly picture the things you mention offhandedly. And I’m curious: can you? Do you know exactly what a gorrel looks like? A shockwyrm? A coil tree?

Jeffrey: Some people seem to like that, some don’t. I try to leave just enough hints to get the reader working with me at painting pictures. I love the idea that readers might come up with strikingly different illustrations of some of these critters. But there was one critic who went on a rant that I didn’t ever describe what vawns are like. I don’t think he read very closely. There are several passages about their raptor-like bodies, their colors, their scales, how they eat, what they sound like. You just have stay alert.

Gorrels—I see them as kind of a cross between a possum and a squirrel, with the occasional nasty effect of a skunk. A shockwyrm is kind of a cross between a rattlesnake and an electric eel. A coil tree—I could swear I’ve seen coil trees—broad, black trees that twist as they sprout branches, until they’re a swirl of rising, spiraling branches.

I know that I would write these books differently if I started over. What author wouldn’t? You learn as you go. So I’m still finding my way to a good balance of details and mystery.

——-

Readers, come back tomorrow for the rest of the interview, in which we’ll talk about the joys of copyediting, fantasy as an under-appreciated genre, art, and influences.  My thanks to Jeffrey Overstreet for his generous gift of time and thoughtfulness in answering my questions at length!

In the meantime, check out the other CSFF bloggers covering Raven’s Ladder this week. The links are in yesterday’s post.

Long-time faithful Inklings reader Elisabeth Allen has kindly posted an interview with yours truly on her blog, Hope Scribbles. She asked some great questions about writing, faith, homeschooling, and indie publishing, leading to a fun (and I hope inspirational) conversation. Read Part 1 and Part 2 at these links.

Last week I had the tremendous fun of being interviewed by the charming and funny Sarah M. Eden, an author and blogger. You can read the interview here. We talk about the Seventh World books and ballet and secrets from Sarah’s past and all sorts of things . Check it out!

Some of you may remember Chawna Schroeder from a feature I ran on her a while back. Last week, she reviewed Worlds Unseen on her own blog, and she was also kind enough to do an interview with me. Read it here if you’re interested; it was fun .

For this month’s CSFF Blog Tour, Donita K. Paul was kind enough to grant me an interview. Although e-mail and spam filters tried hard to sabotage our conversation, we finally connected. I think it was a conversation worth having. I hope you’ll agree!

Rachel: The Vanishing Sculptor was the first of your works I’ve read, and I admit to being a bit surprised at the centrality of humour. Christian fantasy is rare enough; funny Christian fantasy is even rarer. Is humour always a major element in your work? Is this just your natural voice, or do you have a purpose in using it?

Donita: That is my natural voice, but I also play it up because entertainment is a device for reaching people. Laughter is a very important tool. As my cognitive learning specialist friend often says, “A happy brain is a learning brain.”

Rachel: Upon hearing your name, most readers familiar with your work will probably think “Dragons.” Many years ago in Western literature, dragons were typically evil figures. In Scripture, Satan is depicted as a serpent and a dragon. Yet you’re using them as good creatures; using them, in fact, to share the gospel. Do you find there’s a tension between these two depictions of dragons when you write? Do you run into people who object to your use of dragons as symbols of good?

Donita: The dragon in the Bible is a symbol. And symbols are not carved in stone. Symbols are not universal. Symbols can change within context of something new. The red letter A was a symbol for adultery in The Scarlet Letter, but it would be odd, indeed, if every red letter we saw would bring up the connotation of adultery.

In my books, I used the minor dragons to symbolize talents and abilities that God has bestowed upon his children. The major dragons are just characters to interact with the other characters and provide all sorts of fun elements.
I ignore the traditional aspects of dragons in literature, and go for my own rendition.

Yes, I call it wizard backlash when a Christian (who usually has not read anything I’ve written) harangues me over the evil of dragons, wizards, and magic. I used to get upset about it, but don’t take it personally anymore. If they exhibit a teachable spirit, we’ll talk. If they are perfectly happy in their mindset and not willing to engage in a two-way conversation, I leave it to Someone more qualified than myself to deal with their beliefs.

Rachel: The minor dragons were some of the story’s most vivid characters, and I confess they brought back memories of Anne McCaffrey’s Dragonsong Trilogy for young adults. Dragons in popular fantasy have been taking on several common characteristics, including coming in different sizes, teaming up with special people (Eragon), and communicating via telepathy. Your dragons do all these things. I’m curious as to what unique aspects you’re building into your dragons–how you’re trying to contribute to this modern mythology, so to speak. What perception of dragons might readers take away from your books that they wouldn’t get anywhere else?

Donita: Well, I mentioned the minor dragons depict talents. My dragons are additional characters. I hope the way I depict relationships and the elements of friendship between any of the characters will cause readers to take care of their own relationships, nurturing them with honesty, loyalty, and self-sacrifice.

Rachel: Why “tumanhofers”? Why not just “dwarves”?

Donita: LOL! Because fairies, dwarves, elves, trolls, ogres, and such come with a lot of baggage. There are centuries of established traditions surrounding the typical fey folk. I knew I was dragging dragons out of this standard folklore and I didn’t think I could get away with dragging all of them away from conventional perceptions. Besides, it is more fun to make up your own.

Rachel: One of my favourite aspects of The Vanishing Sculptor is the obvious fun you have with language — whether it’s in names like “Bealomondore” and “Beccaroon” or the roving, hilarious conversations of characters like Fenworth and Lady Peg. Would you say you enjoy writing more for the sake of the story or for the sake of the language itself? Or is that a nonsense question?

Donita: Story is paramount. I believe literary fiction delves heavily into just how great your sentences roll off the page and into the reader’s mind. To me, literary works point to the author instead of to the reader. A good story resonates with “everyman.” My purpose is to present characters and plot that engage a reader enough to forget me. I want them to identify with the characters as they mature. I want them to struggle with the plot’s twists and turns. In the end, I want the reader to walk away from the experience as I do, with a new understanding of mankind, perhaps a resolution to be better in some area of his or her life, and with renewed hope.

Rachel: Do you have any words of encouragement or advice for aspiring writers, especially those who are at the agent- and publication-seeking stage?

Donita: Go to conferences. Join professional organizations like ACFW. (American Christian Fiction Writers) Network online with people who have the same vision of fiction that you do and some who write in the same genre. Keep growing.

When Ashley and I began talking about featuring her on Inklings, I asked her to tell me a little about herself and her writing journey. She did, sharing her unique journey.

Rachel: Tell us about your history with writing. When did you begin? Where do you find inspiration?

Ashley: I’ve lived in western New York all my life. I’ve always loved the beautiful colors and rolling hills. Somehow they inspire me. Being homeschooled all my life, I had the privilege of taking my work outside sometimes, or of working extra hard to finish early so I could venture into the fresh air. Often, when I’m writing, I take my laptop outside and write in the fresh air and creation. Somehow I get more creativity and inspiration out there.

I’ve loved writing for as long as I can remember. There’s just something super neat about the words becoming life on the paper and then in the minds and hearts of the readers. Incidentally, I also loved to read. I often curled up with a book on the couch for hours, oblivious of all passage of time. Somehow it intrigued me that my writing could do the same for someone else.

Rachel: Reading is a shared passion for most writers, I think — and as you realized, the journey of writing only starts out as a solitary endeavour. Once your work is on paper, your journey is shared with others. That’s an awesome thing . Tell us about your transition from reader to writer.

Ashley: I began writing a book when I was about 12, but I never finished it. I was writing it for me, and not for the Lord. Some years later, I was hit with a really neat idea for a story. It captured my heart and swept me up so I just HAD to write it. I intended it to be around 90 pages long. Then I could print it for less cost and I figured if that one made enough money, maybe I”d have money to print the first book I’d started when I finished it. But as I wrote, I realized the characters and story deserved more space. NEEDED more space. So the 90 page book turned into a 360 page book. My first novel.

Over the course of about 3 years I wrote off and on in between my filming projects and other things. The biggest difference between this book and the first one I started was that I was writing this book for the Lord. It had meaning and purpose, and it inspired me. I felt like the Lord had given me a message for the book, and I hoped it would help heal people’s hearts – one of my passions. As I neared the end of writing the book, an urgency gripped me to finish so the story and message and healing could begin to reach people’s hearts. I wanted to do this, not by preaching or teaching, but just by a fun, though deep, heartwarming story. Through the lives of my characters. Just like God uses our lives in other people’s lives… your actions speak louder than your words.

All through the writing, it was rather amazing to me how the story just poured out. I felt like God was giving me the story. The writing journey was exciting and rewarding. Currently I’m working on the sequel!

I pray the Lord uses the book and all else I do to heal people’s hearts and draw them to Him.

Rachel: Writing isn’t your only creative outlet, or the only place of ministry you see for yourself. Tell us about your other work.

Ashley: I also love making films. I feel like films and books are a lasting way to make an impact for Christ. It strikes me as very neat that they’ll probably be around even after I’m gone. Because of my interest in filmmaking, I took the knowledge I’d gained working on a few different Independent Christian movies and got my family and some other homeschoolers together and we made a fun commercial/trailer advertising the book! I thought seriously about making the book into a feature length movie too, but we’ll see how the Lord leads with that.

I imagine writing on and off will be a part of my life, as well as making films and other creative things.

Rachel: For this first book and your films, you’ve chosen to go the indie route for publication. Why is that? Did you look into traditional publishing at all, or did you always know you would self-publish?

Ashley: I always had in the back of my mind that I wanted to self-publish. When I was younger, I’d heard that if you went the traditional publishing route, they wanted to have some control over the content of you work, and I didn’t want that. I wanted to be able to write just exactly what I felt God had given me to write.

I did look into traditional publishing a little bit, but decided for the self publishing route. Somehow it seemed more free and like an adventure too… not to mention it felt more like God was in control. I may someday go the traditional route, but for now, I like the self-publishing journey.

Rachel: You’ve shared about your heart for ministry through writing and other creative work, which is a marvelous passion to drive what you do. As you’ve discovered, though, writing and self-publishing are also a lot of work. Can you tell us about the process of marketing so far? How have you marketed your work? Do you find that marketing intersects with ministry?

Ashley: Yes! Writing and self-publishing IS a lot of work! I loved the writing part! Though sometimes it felt a little overwhelming, usually the story just poured out. There were times I wouldn’t be able to sleep at night as ideas poured into me. I began keeping paper and pen beside my bed and got very good at jotting things down in the dark.

I haven’t done tons of major marketing yet, but we do have a plan. Before the book was even done, I created a website (www.trestle2treasure.com) and began offering pre-orders once I had a pretty certain completion date. I got quite a few! And it helped immensely with the upfront costs that come with self-publishing. I also wrote a script and shot the commercial I mentioned before and put that on the website and other online video sites such as YouTube. We plan to send an information package to companies and catalogs including a DVD of the commercial for them to see. I also put an ad in a homeschool magazine, “Homeschool Enrichment”. Based on how well that does, I may place ads in other ones as well.

My Dad sees many people as he works every night delivering newspapers to stores. It’s really neat how his life is a ministry to them, just by living it. He found creative ways to tell various people about my book as he went on his nightly rounds and some of them ordered it! It’s been touching to hear some of the stories he brings back to me… thrilling really… of how they couldn’t put the book down, and they passed it along to their mother, who passed it to her neighbor… I pray it touches their hearts too.

So, yes, I do see that ministry and marketing are kind of tied together. Really, the testimonies of how people loved it or it touched their lives are the only reward I need. That was my goal as I wrote it, I saw making money as an extra bonus if it should happen.

It sends chills down my back to think of how many people could be holding my book right now and what God might be doing through it. Many prayers went out with it… that it would make an impact and help heal hearts, the first step of which is to find Jesus and make Him Lord.

Rachel: Ashley, thanks so much for sharing your work and your heart with us. Readers, learn more about Hearts Journey Home tomorrow!